A great
comment from Yves says
"Have you not learned anything from CSS, HTML and the future direction of not using
inline styles, but using CSS for look and feel(color, font, position ...) outside
of the HTML document (or at least in the head)?"...
Avalon has a solid notion of styles. All appearance of an element can be determined
from a style. Avalon styles are hierarchical - that is they can be defined at any
scope an impacts from that location down in the tree. Avalon styles are not rule based
(like CSS) but rather used a "named style" mechanism. Avalon styles support the definition
of property and event based transformations (although I believe the event triggers
aren't working in the PDC bits). First, lets look at a basic style:
In this example the button *would not* be colored red. The style
has a name, and therefore you would need to specify on the button:
<Button Style="{MyStyle}">Hello</Button>
The curly brace syntax means that the style is being set from a resource reference.
Resources can be defined and overriden anywhere in the tree. If you have browsed the
SDK documentation for Longhorn you have probably seen styles that look like this:
<Style><Button Background="Red"
/></Style>
This is what we call a "default" or "implicit" style. This requires some explanation.
You see every element has a default value for every property. The default value for
the "Style" property is the type of that element... OK, more explanation needed. The
name of a resource can be any object, not just a string. Thus, you can actually make
a resource have the name of "*Int(5)" which would be the integer value of 5 (don't
try this in the PDC build, doesn't work <G>). However, one thing you can do
is use a type reference:
Ahh! So, we can use the type of an element to be the key for that style in the resource
collection.
When designing the styling system we had a lot of discussion about how people would
discover the default value of the style. We could have used a naming convention like
"SysButton" or something else, but in the end the simplicity of using the type object
from the CLR was the perfect fit. The final piece of this puzzle is that when you
omit the name of style, we assume that you meant to use the type of the element that
the style is for. Bingo.
OK, now that we have named the style, and have a way for elements to hook up to the
style, how does a style work?
The basis of style is an "as use" syntax, that is - the content of the style should
be just like the element when you would use it. This made it easy for cut and paste
type operations, but also made a single syntax for people to learn. In addition, there
are style specific properties you can set - like "VisualTree" and "VisualTriggers".
Before I dive into the fun of tree & triggers - one more comment about the lookup
rules for resources (and therefore styles)... You can define resources at any level
of the hierarchy. Including the application object. Thus, if you want to define the
look for all buttons in your application you can simply say:
==> I am sorry, but this is a drastic change from html. I don't see the incentive to make the change. This design, from what I understand, basically prevents me from dynamically changing the background color of that button from the code behind. Instead I have to change a property of a style, but since the style may be used for more objects than that button, it's going to change something else too in that page.
<Button Style="{MyStyle}">Hello</Button>
==> curly braces are here of as much importance as choosing between attributes and elements. This goes, when namespaces are added on top of it, much beyond the simplicity of xml. I wonder about the rate adoption of it.
The only good news is for third parties who will come up with an "automatic factorizer" or something like that, help shaping the code without writing anything by hand. But then, what is the purpose of the markup if nobody edits them?
==> I believe those who thought that would be cool to do that are totally gone nuts. Much too complex, there is no point in doing markup at all.
Stephane Rodriguez
11/02/2003 6:16 AM
I must admit, at first look, it doesn't look good. I think somebody needs to prepare a very convincing whitepaper as to why CSS would not work as well.
My guess is we're seeing just a top of the iceberg here with styles. In order for CSS to be used, it would have had to be a CSS3 spec (with behavioral extensions and such), which isn't officially out yet, and it would have had to be extended beyond the needs of a "simple mechanism for adding style to Web documents" (to qoute w3c.org). Would you rather have a frankenstein that is a loose interpretation of how HTML concepts apply to desktop application and isn't even in an XML format?
I would take a cleanly designed for its specific purpose, XML-based spec anyday over that.
Programmers and HTML hackers are both familiar with the difference between classes and instances; class selectors vs id-selectors. You shouldn't have to force the two into the same namespace, and then use magic symbols to disambiguate the two.
Of styles and styling
A great comment from Yves says "Have you not learned anything from CSS, HTML and the future direction of not using inline styles, but using CSS for look and feel(color, font, position ...) outside of the HTML document (or at least in the head)?"...
Avalon has a solid notion of styles. All appearance of an element can be determined from a style. Avalon styles are hierarchical - that is they can be defined at any scope an impacts from that location down in the tree. Avalon styles are not rule based (like CSS) but rather used a "named style" mechanism. Avalon styles support the definition of property and event based transformations (although I believe the event triggers aren't working in the PDC bits). First, lets look at a basic style:
<Window ...>
<Window.Resources>
<Style def:Name="MyStyle"><Button Background="Red" /></Style>
</Window.Resources>
<Button>Hello</Button>
</Window>
In this example the button *would not* be colored red. The style has a name, and therefore you would need to specify on the button:
<Button Style="{MyStyle}">Hello</Button>
The curly brace syntax means that the style is being set from a resource reference. Resources can be defined and overriden anywhere in the tree. If you have browsed the SDK documentation for Longhorn you have probably seen styles that look like this:
<Style><Button Background="Red" /></Style>
This is what we call a "default" or "implicit" style. This requires some explanation. You see every element has a default value for every property. The default value for the "Style" property is the type of that element... OK, more explanation needed. The name of a resource can be any object, not just a string. Thus, you can actually make a resource have the name of "*Int(5)" which would be the integer value of 5 (don't try this in the PDC build, doesn't work <G>). However, one thing you can do is use a type reference:
<Style def:Name="*typeof(Button)"><Button Background="Red" /></Style>
Ahh! So, we can use the type of an element to be the key for that style in the resource collection.
When designing the styling system we had a lot of discussion about how people would discover the default value of the style. We could have used a naming convention like "SysButton" or something else, but in the end the simplicity of using the type object from the CLR was the perfect fit. The final piece of this puzzle is that when you omit the name of style, we assume that you meant to use the type of the element that the style is for. Bingo.
OK, now that we have named the style, and have a way for elements to hook up to the style, how does a style work?
The basis of style is an "as use" syntax, that is - the content of the style should be just like the element when you would use it. This made it easy for cut and paste type operations, but also made a single syntax for people to learn. In addition, there are style specific properties you can set - like "VisualTree" and "VisualTriggers".
Before I dive into the fun of tree & triggers - one more comment about the lookup rules for resources (and therefore styles)... You can define resources at any level of the hierarchy. Including the application object. Thus, if you want to define the look for all buttons in your application you can simply say:
<Application ...>
<Application.Resources>
<Style def:Name="MyStyle"><Button Background="Red" /></Style>
</Application.Resources>
</Application>
Although this is a really long winded response to Yves, I hope he can see that we haven't forgotten styling.
3:06 PM | #Longhorn
11/01/2003 11:52 PM
Why not use CSS, instead of re-inventing it?Matt
11/02/2003 12:06 AM
ie:<style type="text/css">
Button {
background: red;
}
</style>
<Window ...>
<Button>Hello</Button>
</Window>
Matt
11/02/2003 1:56 AM
I wonder how much time it takes before Avalon's xml markup like this are declared insane, and left in the dust.
<Style def:Name="MyStyle"><Button Background="Red" /></Style>
==> I am sorry, but this is a drastic change from html. I don't see the incentive to make the change. This design, from what I understand, basically prevents me from dynamically changing the background color of that button from the code behind. Instead I have to change a property of a style, but since the style may be used for more objects than that button, it's going to change something else too in that page.
<Button Style="{MyStyle}">Hello</Button>
==> curly braces are here of as much importance as choosing between attributes and elements. This goes, when namespaces are added on top of it, much beyond the simplicity of xml. I wonder about the rate adoption of it.
The only good news is for third parties who will come up with an "automatic factorizer" or something like that, help shaping the code without writing anything by hand. But then, what is the purpose of the markup if nobody edits them?
<Style def:Name="*typeof(Button)"><Button Background="Red" /></Style>
==> I believe those who thought that would be cool to do that are totally gone nuts. Much too complex, there is no point in doing markup at all.
Stephane Rodriguez
11/02/2003 6:16 AM
I must admit, at first look, it doesn't look good.I think somebody needs to prepare a very convincing whitepaper as to why CSS would not work as well.
Darrel Miller | mailto:darrelAT NOSPAMtavis dot ca | darrelAT NOSPAMtavis dot ca
11/02/2003 8:37 AM
Matt, Darrel,My guess is we're seeing just a top of the iceberg here with styles. In order for CSS to be used, it would have had to be a CSS3 spec (with behavioral extensions and such), which isn't officially out yet, and it would have had to be extended beyond the needs of a "simple mechanism for adding style to Web documents" (to qoute w3c.org). Would you rather have a frankenstein that is a loose interpretation of how HTML concepts apply to desktop application and isn't even in an XML format?
I would take a cleanly designed for its specific purpose, XML-based spec anyday over that.
Dimitri Glazkov | mailto:dimitriAT NOSPAMglazkov dot com | dimitriAT NOSPAMglazkov dot com
11/02/2003 4:47 PM
I don't know, this all makes sense to me. Obviously CSS specs as we know them have some shortcomings that need to be addresses.driverdave | http://www.homerjay.net | sk8shopAT NOSPAMhotmail dot com
11/04/2003 1:57 AM
<Style def:Name="*typeof(Button)"><Button Background="Red" /></Style>This looks like it is conflating names and classes - using magic names to match class names.
Would this style my button sub-class MyButton with a red background? (i.e. will sub-classes inherit their parent classes styles?
I think this sort of syntax would be cleaner and easier to understand:
<Style def:Class="Button"><Button Background="Red" /></Style>
Programmers and HTML hackers are both familiar with the difference between classes and instances; class selectors vs id-selectors. You shouldn't have to force the two into the same namespace, and then use magic symbols to disambiguate the two.
Christian Mogensen | mailto:christian(a)superoffice dot com | christian(a)superoffice dot com
02/17/2004 5:11 AM
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